SBIT student feedback
Awrighty, this is Terry here with something a bit different. I am planning the workload for my classes with the SBIT 2nd Year group this semester, and would like a bit of input from second year students. This is more for my own planning, but I daresay that if you have something to suggest to Jane and Ian, you might as well get that off your chest too. Ponder these issues...
- Is there anything in particular that you'd like to see covered? Perhaps something that you feel we might not cover to your satisfaction?
- How keen are you all on comic book illustration?
- How would you feel if I discarded the "Build Your own Website" task for Semester 2, and instead got you to make a blog (or DeviantArt page or something similar) and spend the extra time on your final projects?
- How keen are you all on comic book illustration?
- How would you feel if I discarded the "Build Your own Website" task for Semester 2, and instead got you to make a blog (or DeviantArt page or something similar) and spend the extra time on your final projects?
(PS. Ian insists that every post has an image, so here is a Dalek... apropos of nothing... but Daleks are cool, huh?)
38 comments:
Hi Terry
I'd like to spend a short time on comics illustration; maybe a strip (storyboard) rather than a book.
I would like more life drawing of people. To get a prortfolio together. This includes studio and real life.
A stop mo' plastecine fortnight.
I'd like to keep the web site part as I think it can be designed as a better promotional tool/ online CV than a blog.
Is there a chance to look at limited animation techniques and file formats to provide short web content and for phones, advertising, pods?
That's just off the top of my head.
Industry speakers & guests. Mark was great last year. the "Flash will Crash" night put on by QA was good to.
Yo~
Well I'm not good with the whole 'my say' thing but I like some of Frank's suggestions. Like the Stop motion idea.
I would also like maybe some lessons in putting 3D with live action. [I think Ian said we're doing that anyway sooo I just answered my own question...]
Well I don't mind about the website thing. I'm trying to set a website for myself but I forgot all the coding X_X
Yeah I think that's all I can really think of for now ^^;
Just lifted a quote from Stephen G from Spline Doctors. I thought I'd add it in this post as well:
"Here's my short list Timing, Anticipation, Arcs, Posing, Squash and Stretch and Overlap. Without these you got nothing with them you might have something. I see too many assignments that generally don't include any of these. My question is why don't people use these principles or think to use them? It's rather simple I make a checklist..."
Would it be possible to get such a checklist on each lightbox and screen in the studio this year? Oh, and on the back of the toilet doors as well?
I've concentrated down to an essence.
I need repetitive things and reviewing the basics seeking improvement each time.
There was so much new to learn in building the foundation in first year. Lots of theory. I think this year I'd like to put animating into practice.
Line testing. The back and forth to the line tester is the key example of the method in practice.
For example.
Make 3 seconds of animation. Focus on the basics.
Then make another 3 seconds of animation. Focus on the basics. Recognise the limitations of the previous animation.
Keep revisiting the animation principles. Dare I say, drill them in.
Maybe that's why show reel production would be better than a narrative?
This may turn out to be a bit boring for my younger colleagues.
I do suspect your ability to see the value in "Drilling" may be due to your greater life experience Frank.
However, while I'm letting Terry make a start on the narrative theory in the early part of this semester I intend to run the whole 2nd year group through a bunch of monkey see monkey do exercises. They wont cover much new stuff, just putting the principles into practice. I also think the amount of new information you guys took on last years has had some drawbacks (far outweighed by the benefits), namely I don't think many of you really have your head around how immediate animation can be.
The exercises won’t be traditional, they will be in 3D using the Easy Man Rig, just because it will be faster that way. The emphasis will still be on the basic principles, testing and reviewing them. Skills that can be applied to any other animation in the future.
You can rest assured that every animation scene I look at, I will be looking for the basic principles and pulling you up when they aren’t applied. That’s my thing, its been my bread and butter for my whole career. I consider that Jane and the Big T have much more insight and much stronger opinions when it comes to stories. As for how you keep the basic principles at the forefront of your mind, I’m afraid that’s up to you. As well as the toilet doors we could follow you hame and whisper them in your ear as you sleep, it wouldn’t be creepy I promise :P
Thanks for the responses thus far folks.
(Say... who is that mysterious "Animation Student" who often pops in with a pertinent quote from Spline Doctors or the like?)
Some quick responses to your suggestions:
- I daresay that we'll still do a bit of comic book work, but less than in previous years. Maybe just 3 or 4 pages.
- Stop Mo plasticine doesn't really lend itself to my classes or my personal skillset, but it does sound like fun. Will think about it some more and bring it up with Jane too. Am currently doing some very juvenile stop-mo with a 9-year-old cousin and it's great fun!
- Current intention re: websites is to let you choose to either make your own site or to create an interactive Flash animation. Both projects use the same basic scripting principles. This will be a semester 2 thing, though.
- Limited animation techniques? File formats for ipods etc? Yeah baby yeah!
- Another industry night would be awesome. Sadly QA is no more but hopefully we'll try to replicate last year's success with a similar event. Maybe it won't be Flash-themed this time, though.
- An emphasis on those animation principles mentioned by the mysterious Animation Student? I think that we drill them enough (although moreso Jane and Ian, admittedly). We teachers are indeed going to print out various important quotes/lists/proverbs and paste them around the room.
- Regarding the narrative vs showreel debate... Jane, Ian and I have worked something out that should keep everybody happy, methinks. More on that later.
Keep it coming folks!
I would like to Build a website and if you don't get to get an Animation job straight away you can always fall back on designing websites..:D also you can easily make a blog or DA page yourself..
and The Comic book part would be fun to do..
Thanks for asking but I would like to both of these subjects.
People please try not to concentrate too much on making your websites this year and concentrate on what you guys actually need to get into animation. tell terry what you really want to go for after graduation. none of these lil bits of stuff like i want to do comic illustrations, story boards, or making a book, stopmotion plastecine, websites, 3d and 2d, or all at the same time because it will stuff you up in the end. make up your mind and choose one thing, either an artists for books comics novel, or 3d animation for games, or 2d an 3d animation, or character designs for anything. This is you last YEAR so WAKE UP! My last year was a disaster because of the moving campus and maya program problems with licencing and not only that we just started the 3d on the last semester which was kind off a disgrace! you guys are lucky that you wont have problems like that in this year. Our courses was stuffed up aswell. Ian should actually help those that really have the potential to get a job on animation instead of spending too much time on the slacker and the ones that aren't serious or the ones that don't really know what to do after. I mean come on I only out of 24 student atleast 5 people where actually very serious about the damn thing including me. I know I have learned alot from Ian but really Half way of second year doing 3d! I wanted more! It should have been the start of second year....sigh. You guys are lucky! You all should be serious about this! Looks at our showreel for 2007! For goodness sake! who wants to bloody watch a 5 of experimental animation about lovers who lost a lover come on!!! 2 minutes could have been atleast ok but 5 damn minutes of agony. and then anothe 5 minute experimental animation.
Terry the set up on the dvd was pretty bad and i know you have done your best on it and last minute but for the sake of these second years of 2008. The dvd should have the 3d animations first before the experimentation. Atleast dont mix the 3d and experimental or even the 2d flash animation. Separate them in groups. I would love to come back and do another year but money is always the case and I need a job asap. Im bloody 29 and havent worked for nearly 3 years because of my damn wrist!!!
Im sorry Terry, Ian, and Jane if im abit off but i just need to let it out.
To the second years, if you guys are gonna slack off or not take this seriously then you don't belong there. go play outside or quit to make it even easier! Don't involve the ones that are taking the class seriously and
Dan i know you are a very talkative person but please let your classmates do what they came to learn. Don't be like our friendly classmate Ian (not the teacher) lol. But seriosly it's time to grow up abit and do some serious work like what IAN (teacher) says. Listen to your teachers aswell!!
Well, Good Luck everyone!!! i'll be visiting once in a while.
daleks are cool. we got a remote controlled one a little while ago...good for exterminating things
Hmmm Well Well Well.
An emotion filled out burst from a 2007 graduate. Its always interesting to muse at who these anonymous posters are.
I concede that the late exposure to 3D was a bit of a shambles, and the constant need to renew the Maya licences within a big silly bureaucracy still scares me (our current licenses run out towards the end of March).
As far as who gets my time (or any teachers time) I think perhaps you need to consider what you've paid for. In Sems 2, 3 and 4 of the course I'm paid for 2 classes, about 6 hours with each group, with an extra hour and a half thrown in for preparing stuff. What you get is pretty much seven day a week access, and in the case of 3D a tone of pre prepared materials (video tutorials). The more proactive students were emailing me work for review and bugging me with technical issues all through the week and at all hours of the day and night, some even for weeks after the course had ended. Out of the 100 or so video tutorials I've produced I was paid for the first 5 back in 2006. Everything else you have received has been provided above and beyond what you have actually paid for. In short everyone got a lot of time with me, many times more than they would at a university I might add. There is a positive point to what your saying though, but I'll get back to that towards the end.
Your criticism of the Terry and the final DVD boggles my mind. The DVD is something your supposed to keep so that you can remember your time at Tafe, its not something you would show an employer or anything. As such I can't see any logic in saying this animation should go before that, or what animation should or shouldn't go in. Its a record of the experience you ALL had in the course, I'm not aware of anyone ever saying it was anything more. Again it might be worth noting that Terry donated a heap of his own time and equipment to even make it happen. LAY OFF THE BIG T MAN!
Now lets try to draw some positive actoin from the comment. I wonder if we did a survey of recently graduated students how many would feel that there wasn't enough time, or that they didn't get enough done. I think it would be most. As teachers we get to see it over and over, you blink and they years over. No more equipment, no more time working with along with your class mates, a lot less access the help of your teachers. I estimate that about 1 or 2 people leave the course each year feeling ready to apply for jobs. The rest can now contemplate how much time they spent during the year talking, arriving late or leaving class early, devoting time and energy to what I call the short term game, the immediate little things in life that only sustain the status quo, you have to sacrifice some of these if your life is going to change. I rabbit on about it all the time but maybe having herd the perspective of a past student will help get it through. To get to where you need to be THERE MUST BE A SENSE OF URGENCY THIS YEAR!
I’m afraid that the inclusion or exclusion of a web site this year won’t help you unless that message gets through. Anonymous student would have herd me saying it all through the course, but I bet (especially if you are who I think you are) only really got his/her ass moving in the last quarter of the year. By then its too late, you could have your best teacher sitting by your side 24 hours a day for the rest of the course, but you can’t make a diamond in a few weeks, it takes ages of sustained pressure.
I dispute that daleks are cool . . . . .
Run Ian before the nerds get you! haha
To the anonymous 2007 graduate.
Thanks for your comments. It takes guts to write stuff like that and I respect you (and your anonymity) for it.
I can see that you're not paying out on , or blaming the teachers, but expressing your frustrations at the experience you had of second year. We can learn from that.
It's a good message to read and heed.
Ian, keep drilling us with the 'life will try to get in the way of animating' pep talk. I found it a real benefit last year and I think it is a good message to keep reminding us of.
I'm looking forward to a very busy year! Woo - hoo! And for those of you, who might be a bit like me and not pay attention to dates. We start back on Monday February 18th.
Hey Guys
Sony Tropfest will be screened the night before school starts on Sunday 17th February.
It's usually screened in Southbank somewhere.
Bring a few bubbles or beers, and some corn chips! We can ease our way back into animation by checking out which Australian animators made the finals this year.
Meet you down there, bring a rug, centre of the crowd a few rows back.
I always thought that daleks would make good plumbers.
Especially now that they can fly up stairs.
Hi Anonymous.
As Ian and Frank said, you made some good points. Ian responded with a lot of points that I would've made, so I won't repeat them here, but I'll add a few things.
A lot of industry types suggest that students adopt "tunnel vision" and focus all of their energies into one particular aspect of animation. But then employers also often cite the need for multi-skilled employees who are flexible and can work on diverse projects. So there are obvious pros and cons to the whole "specialisation vs. generalisation" debate and I think it's up to students to decide what suits them best.
I am a little confused about the DVD thing too. It's not a DVD authored for you to get a job out of, and I'm not going to leave off anybody's work, no matter how much it bores you. As for the order of the films, I think it's more interesting to keep things mixed up, but you have the right to differ, that's cool.
I'll echo Ian's point that he (and Jane and I) put a lot more time into the course than we are payed for. I'm not saying this for kudos or a whinge... I'm saying this because it's a bit rich to suggest that Ian didn't give anybody enough time. The I-Man is all about "value for money".
Thanks for taking the time to post and for making your points in a civil manner. It's nice to see that you obviously want the next batch of students to do well.
About the dvd comment lol, sorry my mystake, I was talking about the end year screening that was organised where all bits and pieces everywhere. I could tell people that where watching were betting bored on 2006, then 2007. 2d flash, 3d anmation, and experimentation was mixed together. The best ones should start at the begining like 3d models and mevements dialogue acting. Then 2d flash animation, then last but not least Experimental animation.... Makr that LAST! You dont want audience to get bored and start whispering right at the begining of the screener... you want to leave before the end of the screening.
So yeah, Terry the dvd is great! Sorry about that mixing up dvd with the screening lol.
Terry, I know you , Ian and Jane did more alot for us 2006 to 2007. It was much appreciated. Wouldn,t it be great to hear at least out of 20 plus students, less than ten or ten of your students are woking in an animation industries or games indusry or anything to do from what the students have learned from you guys.
2006 graduates, out of the students you guys had, how many got in the animation? Let's say none except for one actually who got in because A teacher knows someone inside an industry, shall we say Liquid animation right.
That student was told that his showreel is good but it was not enough to go through or what they are looking for. But i'm sure Ian told them otherwise because he worked hard and so forth. How long did Sam lol worked on his 3d and when did he start 3d.
What about the graduates of 2007? Where can we begin, none of them! Maybe 3 or 5 people are sending out their reels and resume as we speak.
Before the end of 2007 I talked to a few of the students and for the love of god! none of them don't really know what to do after! Come on what the hell are they doing the course for! I mean what the heck lol! Some of them even said im going to uni to learn more, another says im going to do another course, then another says hmmmm.... i dont know. EH!
...sigh.... I wonder how they are doing now? I hope they found what they really want to do. I know what I want to do. WHAT ABOUT YOU second years lol.
Hong is a poo! pikachuuuuuu!!
ian - ohhh you are in for it now...disputing that Daleks are cool, they are awesome, and you know it ...heheh.
...this lot of posts is certainly getting fired up.
Hey Again Anonymous
I'm so glad your still commenting and are in a constructive frame of mind. I really want the blog to be a place where open civil debate is the norm.
I'm afraid however that I still have to differ with you issue, even when applied to the screening instead of the DVD. As far as I know there were no industry folk at the screening, it was a friends and families affair.
We made a conscious decision not to go out of our way to invite industry folk for your benefit. Because we cover so much ground and so many different styles of work and because time is precious for industry folk and they don't want to sit through a whole bunch of stuff that’s not relevant to them* we decided the screening was just as likely to create a bad impression as good, regardless of the quality of work. The last thing we want is for your show reel to remind them of that boring or time wasting night they had a few months back.
If we did invite industry then the issue would be who goes first, if we put games relevant stuff first then the multi media folk have to sit through stuff they don’t necessarily care about and so on, its an organisational nightmare.
For as long as we are an Animation course as apposed to a games course, multimedia course, or film animation course (which is the way all of us like it) then I think its best to leave it so you can make a the best possible impression when you show potential employers your show reel for the first time.
The student who’s work was played second (or about there) this last year had to ask us to play his work again after everyone else had left because some of his friends had arrived a little late. In the previous year the guys from Krome who came along arrived a little late too, something over which we have no control. If we had things arraigned your way they would have missed all of the work you intended them to see and sat through a whole screening of stuff they didn’t want to see, this would damage our reputation, which would damage your reputation when you apply for a job there.
Another thing is who’s to say what is “best” surely you can appreciate that that’s a pretty subjective thing. What are the chances of us thinking what’s best will be same as you or any other student. Pretty slim I think.
The screening is a celebration, not for getting you a job. I was pretty sure we made that clear during the year. I’m afraid I see our job as giving you what you need to get a job, not getting it for you. When I was an employer in the biz, I found that to be a handy filtering system, it meant that usually only the ones who really wanted it got through. Bottom line . . . That bits up to you.
* In an ideal world I’m sure anyone in the industry would love to enjoy an evening of animation that covers a broad range of techniques. But I can tell you from personal experience that when your doing your best to do your job to the best of your ability you rarely have the energy to enjoy animation just for the hell of it. Its one of those bitter sweet things.
In your latest comment you are talking about an industry wide phenomenon, its hard to get a job in animation. Its making cartoons for a living for crying out loud, lots of people want to do it. I can tell you for sure that the percentages are pretty much the same from any educational institution in the country. All we can do is give you what you need for the journey, making the journey will always be up to you.
WOH NELLY. . . I 100% reject the assertion that Sam only got his job because of me, That’s totally wrong, I can tell you that it costs a heap of money to employ someone, and you don’t do it just because of a reference, you need to know they have the goods. If Liquid didn’t think Sam could do it they wouldn’t have taken him on, after 7 or 8 years in the biz, I think they would know what they are doing enough to make up their own mind.
Clay from the same year has been animating at Blue Rocket in Tasmania for some time now (he favours 2d over 3D and was still one of the few to get a job), so Sam isn’t the only one. There are a few from your year that I expect to see in the industry soon, but it doesn’t happen that fast. Its Hard . . . again if you have been listening to me then this shouldn’t be new information. If people are unsure what they are doing next its usually because the road ahead looks harder than they thought it would be. Before they learned about it, they thought they might just become an animator, it wasn’t that easy for me and it won’t be for you. I spent a full 18 months soldering on after I finished study, living on peanuts so that I could keep animating in my own time. I know others for whom it was much harder. It sorts the diamonds from the rough.
Its just dawned on me, maybe this is some misdirected frustration. Its going to he hard to get a job, that’s got nothing to do with the course, but it sure is frustrating. I’m afraid we can’t make a course that makes it easy to get a job, no-one can, if they tell you otherwise they are lying. I bet a place like Krome for example gets hundreds of applications in any given year, maybe thousands, you could be amazingly good and still get lost in that system for a million different reasons, there are so many variables.
Are you at the cross roads? Are you giving up? I hope not. Maybe its time to look deep down inside and ask how much you want this. If your confident you want it more than everyone else then you don’t take no for an answer, and even if the Diploma was only the first step of many towards a career in animation, it doesn’t matter, you just keep walking.
Terry,
I'm lovin' this "getting real" vibe.
2 things that may help us see into the post diploma fog.
1) How about a series of *Reality Checks* or *Reality Bites*
Any chance of getting Steve Baker to give us (all) a pep talk?
Is Jules Faber a good speaker for his point of view?
How about the famous Flashmeister Mark Osberg, will he be making a guest appearance?
Then there are Lisa, Sam and Clay. Would they be interested in a beer and a plate of gravy with potatoes at the Plough?
Would you, Ian and Jane be able to give us a pep talk about your paths into teaching animation?
I know you might be nervous about students turning up for guest speakers. Just make it compulsory, like Ian did with line tests. That seemed to work. Get a bit Draconian on our arses.
2) Do any of the studios provide a couple of days work experience when we have intra semester breaks?
Ian, I'm telling Stavros on you.
Lisa, does your dalek kill cockroaches? That'd be handy in my animation studio.
Hey guys & gals in 2nd year,
Where are you? Will Cassie, Robyn and I be returning to a big empty 3rd floor with tumble weeds rolling through and a nervous flock of first years trying to out cool each other in the corner?
Speak up.
If you just want to read about ideas for our learning in 2008, you can collapse comments down by clicking on the symbol to the left of the posting person's name.
[Now that's nerding it up waay more than daleks.]
That will leave you with a list of comments that you want to read and you won't sprain your mouse wheel.
Cheers
Agreed on the subject of misdirected frustration.
The unfortunate reality is that animation jobs are scarce and heavily competed for, and no amount of nit-picking about the order of films on screening night (What the hell?!) will change that.
It's definitely too early to be getting so frustrated about not finding work. It's only been a month or so since graduation, and it's gonna take A LOT of time and persistence.
Applying for jobs is a fine art in itself, and employers are as interested in your character as much as your reel. It's true that I probably wouldn't have a job based on my reel alone, but I'd spent months communicating with the studios trying to walk that fine line of being persistent without being a nuisance, gradually forming relationships with two studios in particular until they were willing to take a chance and interview me.
It's especially true for entry level jobs, where the companies expect to have to train you to their standard, they just want to know that you at least have a solid foundation and the right attitude to fit in to the team.
The companies that rejected me made an important point: they want to see people apply for future jobs and see progress since the last application. If you get rejected for an animation job, they want to see you apply for the next one that comes up and see a new and improved reel. If they see that you've been motivated to continue improving your skills in that time, they'll pay attention to your dedication. You can't afford to sit back and expect everything to fall in your lap.
PS. It isn't all doom and gloom though... Once you've put in all that gruelling hard work and landed that job, you get to kick back and enjoy the fruits of your labour. I'm talking about my full-time personal masseuse, collection of luxury sportscars, holidays in the Caribbean, golf on Wednesdays, Tennis on Fridays. So if you don't like hard work you're gonna love being an animator.
Dr. Nerd, why, I haven't tried killing cockroaches with my Dalek, might be a bit messy - don't want to mess up his wheel...oh, i mean "exterminating gun".
Frank - if we get enough notice, and if it's on a weekend, I would like to come along for some gravy and steak to say hello. I'm afraid you can have my beer for me...it's not my thing. I'll just have extra potatoes in stead. Just during the week is nearly always bad.
be cool to meet you lot, and see Sam, who works so closeby. And of course give Ian a hug.
Excellent Sam.
You can be excused from your talk to the students now, if you want?
Or maybe I should say, "You have passed your interview stage and our man Terry will be in touch for a speaking date."
---
So animators are still working 40 hour weekends? :)
sam , I hope you are being sarcastic in your last comment...otherwise, I wanna work with you!
Hey Lisa that's great. I'll get my people to talk to your people...
er, um...
We'll see if Terry, Ian & Jane are interested in the idea. (They should be with hugs, gravy, extra potatoes and left over beer on offer.)
that aside, what you have said is completely true, and I agree...I'm not the best with words, but that 's great solid feedback for someone looking for work. It is a difficult industry to get into...it's not like applying for something in the building industry , where there are alot of jobs going.(I"m guessing). It's tough work finding something, but it makes it worth it once you get that job and realise that you did it yourself.
haha, Frank...just organise something with Ian at some point.
sounds like a plan
Hi again. We will certainly get some gueat speakers in this year. The QA Flash night last year was a big success and I'd like to repeat that this year.
Regarding individual speakers... Jules now lives in NSW and Steve is notoriously shy (but I will keep trying!). I can pretty much guarantee you'll see quite a bit of Mark Osberg. And I daresay that there are several industry types on this blog - on this very page, even - who you'll be seeing at Southbank soon.
Oh, and with work experience... have tried that many times before but with no success. And a big reason for that is that, as Sam and Ian said (or at least implied), studios aren't interested in getting teachers to lobby for their students... they want people to knock on their doors personally and show some initiative and work ethic. I reecall asking Ian about work experience for students back when he was the big man at Oska, and I believe his answer was something like that.
Excuse my appalling spellling above!
appalling spelling?
Surely I have the market cornered on poor spelling around here.
I realise this topic is close to dead, but there is one more thing I wanted to say in relation to the exchange with the anonymous 2007 student.
I just wanted to say that in spite of my seeing things differently now, I can totally relate to your frustration and even anger. I mentioned earlier that I was on the dole for almost 2 years after I finished Tafe, and if you add the 6 months of study I did at Griffith to get the CES off my back (during which I can’t recall learning a single new thing*) that makes two and a half years between Tafe and employment in the industry.
I was an angry young man, I remember blaming everyone. The government, the people at the check out, teachers, people I passed on the street, they were all responsible as far as I was concerned. Why the hell didn’t people want to see more animation, why did they prefer to drink Latté’s (that couldn’t afford), eat at McDonald’s (which I couldn’t stand) and watch American TV over watching local animation?!?!?!? While Terry and I weren’t close friends at this time, he had seen me around, and I’ve herd him describe me as “scary” back then.
So I can totally relate to the frustration. I’ll tell you one thing though, not for a single split second did I truly consider packing it in. I hope the same can be said of you anonymous student, your passion may prove to be your biggest assets. See if you can find a way to channel your emotion into your work.
* I may not of learnt much, but I made some great friends at Uni, including Lisa from Krome who posts here with some regularity.
aww - ta Ian! It is a hard industry to get into, I admit that, but if you apply and dedicate yourself to your art, things will happen. I remember my time at Uni , with Ian, I was told that there was really only 'Disney's' in Sydney and that was it for animation work. I found that such a scary prospect, as that was a really tiny job market...but I wanted to do animation more than anything else so I kept going until I had a reel. So you need to keep the passion for it going, make sure you have a reel that really demonstrates exactly what sort of job you are applying for, update it when you improve and keep applying and looking.
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